not a captive

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Posts by not a captive

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  347

  Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

  by StoneWall in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.

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  not a captive

  DD--Thanks for that grand underlying point.

  To show how grateful I am, I'll just be quiet.
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  41

  The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

  by AllTimeJeff in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the significance of raymond franz.

  in the light of the passing of raymond franz this week, it is clear from the reaction that many were affected by the deeds of this man.

  while he was called gentle by those who knew him (for the record, i never got to meet him personally) his reputation preceded him both in the ex jehovah's witness community, and still to this day at the world headquarters of jehovah's witnesses.. while his writings were indeed fair and reasonable, (i challenge anyone to read his books and find bitterness associated with him toward his former peers) i think it would be a mistake to remember ray franz as somewhat of a gentle, doting old man.

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  not a captive

  Thanks for putting it together so.
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  27

  Help! I need advideQ Elders want to speak to me..

  by cia171 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as you read in the title, the elders from my congregation want to have a chat with me...which could be about to things...either why havent i gotten baptized ( since ive been in this since i was born...ive been tortured all my life lol) or either because i have a worldly boyfriend.. i dont know what to say in either case!

  i cant say i dont want to get baptized because i have to appear to like the religion til i graduate college cuz my mom pays for it and is pract blackmailing me with it, and i cant say tht i will cause i hate it!

  and about my boyfriend they will either give me advice about why not to be with him or convert him...so i dont know what to say to to pacify them and not let it get to me...so any advice?

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  not a captive

  My daughter when she was 13 had to face down two elders that came on a shepherding call specifically to ask her why she wasn't making moves toward baptism. I learned alot from her that day. And it might help you.

  She could answer all the baptism questions, she answered well at meetings. she even went out in service at times, though that was hard because I typically worked Saturdays then.

  They asked why she wasn't baptised and if it was a goal. She told them is was a goal (it was then) but she wasn't ready.

  They asked her why--because she knew the answers and didn't have a reason not to do it.

  She said she wasn't ready.

  They pressed her (As though I wasn't even there). They asked if I studied with her. She said yes, but now it was just going through our magazines and talking alittle about them.

  So they moved in on this and told her she needed to study the "Knowledge" book with someone other than me, her mom. ( That ticked me off)

  Now here is the point that was so good, I thought. It was true AND there was no way they could get around it. She said:

  "I don't need more knowledge. I can already answer all the baptism questions. But I don't have a relationship with God. I am not dedicated. My mom always said that was the most important part. I don't have a relationship with Jehovah yet."

  One of the brothers got into a slightly bullying mode, but Rose just wouldn't budge; she wouldn't let them convince her that cramming more "knowledge" into her would do it. She said she would have to do it on her own. But she said if she felt like she needed more studying she would let them know.

  A side note: They had kind of ignored my moral authority as the mother until the one brother wanted me to press her to accept a study from someone else. Well, I wasn't going to press my daughter into a study!

  They left her alone for a year and we moved from that area.

  DON'T WORRY! just tell them you would not dream of getting baptised without making a dedication first!Don't let them press because it is unscriptural for them to do that.

  You'll be fine.
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  347

  Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

  by StoneWall in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.

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  not a captive

  Thank you for not letting me twist in the wind over my snittiness.

  I'll take your remark on the law of Moses as evidence of two things: 1)We might agree about the Law of Moses generally--(I think was the lowest common denominator for Israelites) 2) that probably means we would agree that Jesus in his response to the Jews was saying that the Law was too low a threshold to use for anyone who wants to do God's will.

  And regarding Romans 2:14-- isn't that a common complaint among non-Christians--How often they behave better than "the people of God"!

  Actually Rom 2:14 is a sweet place in the divide between rationalists and Christians. This convergence seems to say there is a common cause can rise from our common pain. And at our best won't we both try to heal it?

  But communication is hard. This board becomes quickly polemical on any topic. And while those wild rides can be fun, sometimes they leave us in a state of dissatisfaction; robbing us of a sense of accomplishment.

  I notice thatsome try to pull disperate part together. Tammy is particularly good at drawing very skillfully and gracefully even difficult threads to a useful and satisfying point then stepping back to see if it will stand on its own. It often does. I personally think part of her gift is her confidence that there is a common resting point. She is smart and reasonable, but more : she gets the ideas to move toward each other in slow motion and gets them into position so that each person can see why and how their idea relates and fit to another's. And it helps that she has no apparent interest in a personal "win". That kind of communication just isn't the same as debate. And she has an unflappable kindness and respect for people.

  Debating is a skill that many are good at on this forum. Everyone on this forum is thinking. (I'm not so quick. But I get to tweak a thought along since I'm unemployed and moving out.)That's not enough. Eventually we all want to see our thoughts find affirmation. Isn't that why we put them out there, mainly? As I said before, yes, polemics , yes, debate, but don't we hope for moments after the debates and wranglings are done for thoughts to come together?

  Romans 2:14

  I realize this is a ramble. I realize that this forum is first and foremost a sanatorium. I am so glad.
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  347

  Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

  by StoneWall in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.

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  not a captive

  I apologize, StoneWall,

  I feel now I was pretty reactive. I consider your last post on taking up the sword a sound,measured bit of thought--he very sort of exchange that puts a discussion forward. Sorry I was testy. Maeve
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  2

  Never learning and always mixed up!

  by not a captive in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've been thinking about my old friends who are at the dc this week-end.

  the non-jw husband of one told me.

  i ran into him at an art opening a couple of blocks from here.

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  not a captive

  Hey, snoozy--We're neighbors! I'm in NW Arkansas! There were some good things I remember but just before I came into that little Congo an older couple had moved away. It took a few years but parents began to piece together that the retired brother had molested quite a few of the children. Long ugly after effects. None of this would seem so bad if there weren't this idea that everything and everyone is perfect.
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  14

  I'm leaving .....

  by RR in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .... no, not the forum, just the computer for a few minutes, i'm hungry!

  bye!.

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  not a captive

  Don't they have IV's?
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  347

  Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

  by StoneWall in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.

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  not a captive

  I had corrected "polarize", before your post, Stonewall.

  But I am not in doubt that you understood my meaning anyway. I suggest you not waste your time proofreading my posts--they are usually filled with mistakes of various sorts. I have been used to having my grammar corrected during troublesome disputes with my vastly better educated husband; so I recognize passive aggression when I see it.

  My intent is not to debate or to improve the English on the board. I am trying to comb through the genuinely trying circumstances of life.And after 20+ years of JW life, I do still believe there is that is benevolent and powerful being that I knew before my "captivity". But it is trying to sort through the practical aspect of faith knowing my mind is limited, my time is limited, and the source material is not completely trustworthy.I found this site two months ago and I value tit for many things but mostly for the fine heckling that goes on here.

  It may be foolish to say this, but I do try to understand what Jesus teaches. I had lived for years without utilities and soon many conveniences will be lost to me again. Some would say that living like a backwoods tinker is how you follow Jesus. But I don't think it is. One disciple, Joseph of Arimathea, had money or resources enough to wrap the body of Jesus in yards of fine linen and put him in some prime real estate for burial yet a rich young ruler was told to sell what he had and give it to the poor. It isn't being broke that makes us a disciple--it's just not letting your circumstances, rich or poor, impede the call to follow. "Do not be anxious..."

  The concerns that rationalists and christians deal with are the same, these issues of fear and poverty and death. No one I know lives where these things cannot ever intrude. But internet access has put me into a realm that definitely obscures class perceptions--I know, because I definitely did not have it nor know how to use it until five years ago when the youngest of my seven children had to have it for school. And instantly I , like my daughter, could put a shine on a thought if I had the time. I could access conversations and information that was absolutely unavailable before. And while it allows me a voice in sharp forums and around well educated people I am most interested in examining the truth of Jesus teachings.

  My life has been very interesting but not prosperous.Its been physically primitive a lot of the tim and poor all of the time.I have lived alot without certain modern conveniences. And soon my precious computer will go with me when I move back into the Ozarks. I will be closely engaged with the birds of the air and the lilies of the field again --and no internet for a while at least.

  I don't know anything about you.That generally is not necessary in these debate/discussions. But there was a tone in your post ---maybe I'm wrong---that told me your words did not come from a fair place. Forgive me if I am just overly sensitive in this. Because I can assure you, though I am not afraid of having any or all of my thoughts knocked down, and I do welcome a good solid punch to a badly set idea, I only ask for good motive. I don't have much time.

  Now, I stand by my saying that Jesus did not bind himslf to scripture. Of course he used it, of course. But why be bound to them when they only poorly reflect God's mind? The Law so obviously was filtered through men's minds and words. If Jesus was there basically as God's editor as the Logos, why would he have to give place to the earlier draft of the script? Matthew 19 for example?

  What do you think of Jesus comments on the law of Moses?
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  23

  Me

  by Sighco in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  just thought i should share a bit of my story with you all, i'm on this board everyday and can't stop reading.

  i was raised as a witness by my mother and grandmother, dad and gramps weren't witnesses.

  i was baptized at 15, i believed it was the truth but was still pushed into baptism by my mom, she thought it reflected negativly on her as a mother that i wasn't dipped yet.

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  not a captive

  Greetings, sighco. I really identify with you reaction to the NWT. I am progressively becoming radicalized the longer I am out. The sight of a magazine at my apartments laundry room made me sick. This religion kills us from inside out.

  So glad you are here. I hope your wife joins you.

  Its a serious place AND the funniest too. I told my son today that I have laughed more since I found this site than I have for YEARS!
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  347

  Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

  by StoneWall in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-slagzjmdu.

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  not a captive

  Remember that Jesus did not bind himself to scriptures. He was always in trouble for that. I've said this before--If the servant is not above his master then why would I not try to "get the understanding" ofthe scripture as Jesus said?

  Not heal a woman on the Sabbath? If we save an ox or an ass, why not a woman?

  Why would Jesus recommend singleness--because he didn't recommend ditching your existing obligations--no, he simply advised that you not incur family duties. The evangelist Philip had four daughters, disciples in Acts 21 with their wives and children saw Paul off on a voyage. His references to leaving your parental ties to custom are one thing we leave but he absolutely excoriated the Jews for creating a device-"corban"--by which they could beg off from the care of elderly parents.

  Why try to polarize , why not instead try to understand each other? We are not Witnesses now. What religion do you want me to join?

  Is it rational discussion we want or just debates?